The Vedic Conversation: Can meditation help solve the Social Dilemma?

In this episode of The Vedic Conversation, we’re joined by ex-Facebooker, Digital Wellbeing Consultant and Vedic Meditator Giancarlo Pitocco where we talk about the 2020 Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma and ask whether meditation can help solve the Social Dilemma. 

You can listen below or reader a full transcript of the conversation further down.

Anthony Thompson (00:05):

Hello, and welcome to the Vedic conversation. In this second series, we've made some changes and are inviting guests to share their thoughts about a variety of topics. In this episode, we're talking with Giancarlo Pitocco, who's worked for Facebook, Instagram, Apple, and the world's largest ad agencies. Giancarlo is fighting back against the mental health, productivity and creativity crisis caused by the attention economy and it's habit, forming technology. He founded Purposeful, a wellbeing practice teaching educators, companies, communities, and individuals to renegotiate their relationships with the attention economy. I'm Anthony Thompson, a Vedic meditation teacher based in London. And I'm joined by my Vedic colleagues, Derrick Yanford in New York and Rory Kinsella in Sydney. Sit back and let's dive into this fascinating conversation about how meditation helps solve the social dilemma. So, Giancarlo, I'd like to kick off by just asking you during lockdown. Many of us have increased the amount of time we've spent on digital platforms. And for some people, this has been work-related and for others, it's been a way of finding comfort and solace. In either case there's been an overabundance of comfort, convenience, and stimulation. So apart from having to get new glasses, what is the price we'll be paying for this increased screen time?

Giancarlo Pitocco (01:51):

Well said, well said it's true. We are spending more time on these devices and so many people have written to me or talk to me about this. They're concerned in particular parents but people, you know, work in corporate jobs where they were already on their computers a lot. Now, in addition to work, they're on their computers just to stay connected to family and friends. They're worried that it's unhealthy. And they're always interested for a take on this sort of thing, thinking that I'm going to tell them ways to cut down on their usage and to avoid it, but here's the deal. As I always like to say, even pre pandemic, I teach people how to use technology in service of their needs, their values and their aspirations. And those are things that all can change over time. I teach ways that you can be responsive and adaptive to your circumstances, using technology to come in to support you in those areas of your needs, your values, your aspirations.

Giancarlo Pitocco (02:53):

And I think we could all agree that those things have shifted in the past year during the of 2020. We've had to learn how to adapt that. And I say, thank goodness that we have, I have the power of technology to connect us over distances while we're in quarantine while we're social distancing. I don't know what I do without the connection I have to everyone. In fact, this year I feel more connected to people than I did. Last year in terms of my long distance friendships and family members. We look after each other more and it's because of technology that we're able to do this. So I first and foremost want to say technology, isn't the enemy, but it is important to know how it's been designed to influence our behavior, have that in our minds while also holding in mind.

Giancarlo Pitocco (03:45):

Well, what is the meaningful use of this technology in my life? We need to be careful about what we invite in instead of just getting every cool whizzbang new technology. That seems good. We should ask ourselves, well, how is it actually going to help me live the life I want to live and live it better rather than replacing time spent on things that might be more meaningful to us. So that's what I have to say about that in terms of our mental and emotional health and the role of technology during this time, but there is the physical aspect of it, right. I know that I get zoom fatigue and I do try to find balance between how much time I spend just on the phone voice chat with people versus video chat. Because I find that having my eyes locked at a screen all day, like we're doing right now, makes me feel more tired at the end of the day.

Giancarlo Pitocco (04:40):

Then if I have my headphones in and I'm just talking to someone while I take a walk around the neighborhood I feel better after a day full of those kinds of calls than face to face calls, but we to go one more layer deeper on that. And then I'll, I'll pause. It is important to maintain a balance of social nutrition in your life. A term that I use based on the work of Sherry Turkle from MIT, who wrote a wonderful book called reclaiming conversation, and what she writes about makes me think of social interaction as a form of psychological nutrition. And we need to find balance between the junk food of social interaction, which is what we get when we're scrolling around on social media platforms and just mindlessly watching content clicking on memes, likes comments, those sorts of things versus face to face interaction, even when virtual is much more nutritious for our sense of wellbeing, because most of the machinery up here in our brains is evolved to process a rich spectrum of things that happen when you're face to face with someone it's not just about the exchange of language like you would have through texting or Facebook.

Giancarlo Pitocco (05:56):

It goes further than that. Our brains are spending more energy processing gestures, facial expressions, even pheromones, physical touch, all those kinds of things that you get when you're in person with someone that you really can't replace through text messages or even phone calls, strip away so much of that. There's a hierarchy to these kinds of interactions. And so my point is, even during this pandemic, we do need to find balance between the kinds of interactions we're having. If I do all voice all day, I'm not getting as much nourishment as if I had a little bit of video chat like we're doing right now, mixed in there as well. So response to a short question,

Anthony Thompson (06:39):

That's a great, great, great answer. So you're suggesting that we kind of mix it up, that we kind of make a ticket Tutti, Frutti approach of a little bit of everything

Giancarlo Pitocco (06:49):

I would say, experiment and see what works for you. One of my favorite workshops to run on this topic helps people build a balanced diet of social interactions and thinking about how they want to weight the amount of face to face time they have with people in a socially distance setting versus time just by themselves and solitude, whether that's meditation or taking a walk free from the thoughts of others or phone calls or email or texting or social media. And we even use a, a social or we use a food pyramid style framework to show what is the rough balance you want to have? And then what actually works for you because you know, your needs might be different than mine. There isn't a wholesale recommendation around how much of these things you should have experiment and see what feels good. That's kind of, kind of a good philosophy for life in general, to be adaptive, to changing circumstances.

Anthony Thompson (07:50):

I agree, but one of the issues we have is that the, the the mechanisms that we used, the platforms we use are so addictive. And, you know, we, we, we, we know certainly as has been discussed shown recently and the, the social dilemma, the, the new film that got released last month on Netflix, but the way the big companies are operating now is that our attention is a commodity. And you know, how easy is it? I mean, I absolutely agree with what you're saying about experiment, try things out, put things aside, try other things, but, you know, we've got this, this thing that keeps drawing us in, it's like a siren pulling us into the rocks. You know, how do we, how do we actually turn that around?

Giancarlo Pitocco (08:37):

Yes, yes. So I worked inside of Facebook for three years and I saw this firsthand. And ultimately why I left was because I was so well for a lot of reasons, but chief, among them being disappointed in seeing our leadership not take, or really anyone in the company feel any kind of sense of responsibility for the impact the platform was having on the course of human events, I was there for the 2016 election. I watched Mark Zuckerberg, just flippantly dismiss the accusations that Facebook played any role in disinformation spreading during that 2016 election period really didn't want to take responsibility for it. I was there during the Cambridge Analytica scandal, and again, watched leadership, whether it was Mark or Sheryl Sandberg stand up in front of the company or get on the news at night and be interviewed and deflect responsibility left and right.

Giancarlo Pitocco (09:35):

And it was, it was grotesque to watch. And ultimately I spoke to him about it and directly got no good response to that. That's a whole story in and of itself and, and left to teach people about these things because you're absolutely right, whatever Facebook says, whatever the, the people who lead it say fundamentally their business model is to build an algorithm that displays content to you that is so engrossing so charming to your mind, that it becomes impossible to stop scrolling the same way that junk food is engineered to not fatigue your taste buds while being as potent as possible. And if you don't know about that, there's some great stories you can read in the press from food scientists, talking about how they get that perfect balance. That's the same thing Facebook does, but instead of it being food and our appetite, it's digital content and our attention that's being manipulated here.

Giancarlo Pitocco (10:33):

So we do need to be mindful that once you understand the threat, once you watch things like the social dilemma you, you become aware of the ways in which you are a pawn in a game that's being played. You, our inventory Facebook's products that they are selling. Let let's, let's lay this out for those that haven't seen the social dilemma or any of the other films that have been made about this Facebook's business model is to harvest as much of our time and attention as possible. We give it away for free because their algorithms are so good at showing us stuff that keep us scrolling. Instead of getting fatigued with looking at stuff and put down our phone or whatever it might be.

Giancarlo Pitocco (11:19):

They're so good at this. They've hired,

Giancarlo Pitocco (11:20):

Did the attention of over 3 billion people who are active users across all their platforms, because Facebook owns Instagram and WhatsApp and a number of other platforms as well, 3 billion people, almost half the world's population. They take that attention our time, and then they're selling it to corporations who want to sell products to us, or to politicians who want to influence us with political ads and propaganda. And that's the whole business model. Facebook makes more money if they can harvest more of our time and attention and then sell it to advertisers to show that's the whole thing. And I worked on a division at Facebook that was focused on understanding how all of this was changing human behavior, how it was changing the way we think, the way we feel, the way we behave, the way we communicate, the way we work, what I saw, frankly, scared me into taking action and examining is this true?

Giancarlo Pitocco (12:16):

Do I see this in my own life? And I went through the process of removing as much of technology, including Facebook and Instagram from my life as was possible while also working at those companies which was an interesting challenge all in of itself. But what I learned in that period, I did an experiment for two months. I had dialed back, my tech use as much as possible. That meant getting rid of my TV and everything, putting a little thing on my phone that said, what are you really seeking? And every time I looked at my phone, I had to ask myself that question. Was this a reflexive reach for more stimulation? Or did I have a purposeful intent for reaching for that phone? And when we make that shift in that relationship and realize, Oh my gosh technology was kind of having me like a train dog.

Giancarlo Pitocco (13:00):

Every time I heard the bell, I was panting for more food. Then you can take control of it. And that's what happened. And in two months of this experiment with technology, my life was transformed. I felt better. I was using my time better. I was reading more books than ever. I picked up my hobbies. I have is deepening my relationship with family and friends. The thing that I thought I didn't have time for anymore. And just generally it was getting great feedback from coworkers and friends on, Hey, what's going on with you? Like you are on fire right now in the best way possible. So it's a, it's something that if you're not aware of it and you ignore it, you can't do anything about it. I have Facebook in my life. I have Instagram. I don't use them a lot, but I did transform my relationship with them by knowing what are the ways in which they try to manipulate me, which is what I teach about. And then to is there a reason to have these things in my life? Is there enough value? And ultimately I got to a place where I could balance those things out.

Rory Kinsella (13:58):

Yeah. I've been very similar in that, in that regard with my use of Facebook and Instagram, like I still use them and, you know, as people with our own small businesses, we kind of have to be out there. That's where our customers are. But, but being mindful as in, I'm going to take it off my phone and have it on my computer because there's just that habitual thing of getting sucked in. And I've, I've found the social dilemma, I guess, cause I kind of knew a lot about it. I was like, yeah, does everyone not know this? And maybe they don't. But then I, I did like the kind of practical stuff they said at the end, you know, as you were saying that turn off your notifications, which is such a simple one because you can be doing whatever you want to be doing for half an hour. And then it's like zinging, here's something that's going to be interesting to you. So, you know, that was really important. So I love what you're saying about how, I guess we have all our own, our own responsibility in managing our own use, but then there's this other kind of aspect of, do we get government to regulate them? How do we change that? And I guess it's, we all have responsibility for our own part of it and should maybe start there. But what do you think the likelihood of getting regulation around these behemoths is?

Giancarlo Pitocco (15:20):

I'm incredibly excited to see that a report just came out this week from Congress here in the U S a committee that spent about a year now investigating some of the major tech companies here in the U S and the report has found that they're actively participating in anti competitive behavior and the report hints at breaking them up. Now the execution of that will prove out whether or not that's going to be a meaningful activity, but I hope they follow through in a meaningful way to break up some of the power they hold that heartens me. And I know they've been calling Mark Zuckerberg and others to Congress to testify about these sorts of things. We'll see what happens with that. I don't want to wait for the government to do this for me. We have the power. So there's two sides of it, right?

Giancarlo Pitocco (16:16):

Like we can wait for the government to try and catch up to technology. I don't know anyone who believes the government moves fast enough in any nation on this planet to keep up with the evolution of technology and how fast, the great minds that are trying to solve these problems, build these businesses, move. They move fast, way faster than governments ever can. So government will always be playing catch up and we watch these companies out smart them left and right with new policies, new laws that go into effect, they found find ways around it. Why do you think there are all those popups on websites now that ask you to accept all cookies? That's getting around GDPR regulations that were instituted. They find ways around this, they're doing all the same stuff that GDPR was supposed to protect us against. All they did was put popups on all these websites and then keep doing the same old stuff they were doing before for the most part.

Giancarlo Pitocco (17:05):

So where we see that I'm not super confident we're ever going to get to a place where government can completely protect us. It starts treading into the territory of protecting free speech. And what can you say and do and we're already treading into that territory in dangerous ways. So we could sit there and watch these documentaries and feel helpless about it, which I find a lot of people do. Like whether it's, you know, Screenagers, which is about growing up in a, a tech centric environment where parents can, you know, should know about that. Or if it's these latest ones that have come out like the social dilemma, a lot of people write to me saying they feel helpless about it. When they watch these things, I want to empower people to know here's what you can do about this. You have the power control, what your attention goes to, but you have to also have in mind what kind of life you want to live.

Giancarlo Pitocco (17:54):

Your life has created based on the accumulation of how you spend each moment. And if you're not consciously offering those moments and being present throughout the course of your life and these moments, when you look back on your life, you might not like what you see. This is one of the big shifts I try to help people make. When I first meet them to come to one of my sessions, or we do some coaching or something, it's recognizing that your attention is the one power nature has given you for creating your life. What you choose to pay attention to becomes your life. It's like the needle or the stylist on a record player where you place it determines what music gets played. And if you're allowing the buzzes, the dings, the notifications, the email, the push notifications, all that stuff to lead you through your day.

Giancarlo Pitocco (18:40):

Or if you're a busy executive with a calendar full of invitations of meetings back to back all day, you don't even know what they are, but you're just going to them kind of, you know, mindlessly letting your computer tell you where your next meeting is and what to pay attention to you are no longer the author of your own life. And that's how all these people who seem to be living like impressive lives and impressive careers. Let's say, find themselves in their thirties, forties, fifties, waking up unhappy unfulfilled because they've allowed everyone else around them and their devices to lead them by their noses, lead their attention through life. I tell people you want to be the DJ. You want to determine where to place the needle on that record to determine the music that gets played over the course of your life.

Giancarlo Pitocco (19:26):

Pick it, choose it, get excited about what your life experiences were and what you're going to do next. But if you're not thinking about it and actively planning to offer it and design the experiences, then you're going to be helplessly let around by whatever is the most charming thing in front of you. And that could be a whole bunch of cat memes on Instagram, that after you spend 30 minutes cruising those hilarious memes, it's kind of like just bingeing on a bag of Doritos. You don't feel good and you're no better off for having done it. And you certainly can't sustain yourself off of that kind of junk food. Thank you.

Derrick Yanford (20:01):

One of the most powerful and inspiring things you've already just said in this conversation is how your personal relationships have changed for the better to the point where people were noticing and recognizing. And I feel like when we're talking about these notifications and that we have control over it, well then Facebook or any other social media platform is just like a relationship, except for, you're probably more able to set boundaries that that platform is going to pay attention to then crossing. And I actually listened to a podcast that you were on, where you had said you had stopped the feed from everybody on Facebook, and then you just started to reintroduce certain people. You want it to fall. And then you had a news feed that was filled with inspirational people or people who you really wanted to pay attention to. And I think what we haven't really uncovered enough of is that yeah, either we can interact with those platforms, with the default mode that is given to us, or we can take a little time and do a little digging and set boundaries or whatever and treat it like a relationship.

Derrick Yanford (21:13):

What kind of relationship do I want to have with it? Especially if it's going to lead to me, having deeper, more fulfilling relationships with actual beings in my community, you know, and especially for a person like you, who's worked for those platforms that you found that out. And, and you're having, I would imagine a better experience having, you know, doing what you did. That's inspiring to me. I don't feel hopeless. I mean, I can understand why you would, but it's like, yeah, I can turn those notifications. I can delete it if I want to. So I love the hope that you are giving to people to say, you can take some control here. Don't don't feel like there's nothing you can't do. So thank you for that.

Giancarlo Pitocco (21:59):

Oh, beautiful. I love hearing all of that and thank you for the kind words as well, but I love hearing you feel in control. That's what we want. And honestly when I speak to fellow meditators, I find that they often are in control of these things in a way that non-meditators aren't, which is always very interesting to me because we get comfortable with solitude. And I don't know about where you are, but in the communities I belong to solitude often has a negative connotation. It gets lumped in with loneliness, and it's important to create a distinction between what solitude is and what loneliness is. There's an epidemic of loneliness in this country. No doubt, but solitude is different. Solitude is being free from the thoughts of others. It's spending time with yourself, which is what the practice of meditation is, but it's not the only way to experience solitude and to be comfortable with yourself and your own thoughts without stimulation.

Giancarlo Pitocco (22:58):

And the point you were making about you went in and changed the settings on your newsfeed, on Facebook, which people don't know you can do. They think the algorithm determines everything, but Facebook actually gives you the ability to control what shows up in your feed. And so, you know, taking this idea of solitude so far as to even remove the voices that distract you online experience, what, what Facebook is without the feed is a fascinating thing because all of a sudden Facebook becomes what it originally was, which was a social utility that allowed you to map your network of contacts and then seek out what you wanted from them, whether it was connection with them or to look up their birthday or whatever it might've been back when it was just a fun little diversion for college kids. But we do have this power and it's one of the things I love to teach.

Giancarlo Pitocco (23:49):

I often teach 10 techniques that allow you to take control of your relationship with Facebook. It's one of my most popular talks and workshops that I host, and you can get a taste of it at purposeful.nyc/numeral 10 ways, 10 ways, purposeful.nyc/ten ways. And I I've published the list of things you can do right now. It's changes to the settings on your phone, different prompts you can place in your environment. And other things you can do, other habits and things that you can embrace as little experiments to see what happens when you start taking control of the way technology shows up in your life in small ways. And that's all you need to do to get started and create some momentum towards really what could potentially be a total transformation in your relationship with technology, which is definitely what I saw when I started taming.

Giancarlo Pitocco (24:41):

Some of the distractive forces in Facebook and Instagram so much so that, you know, I thought I was going to end up deleting these platforms from my life completely. But once I realized I could take control of them and make them a force of good in my life by altering how it actually functions in my life without changing any of my habits, just settings in an app, it was incredible. And so, yeah, I mean, my Facebook feed looks dramatically different than it would have. If I hadn't done this, it's full of inspiring quotes and thinkers and certain members from my social circles and family who use the platforms intentionally. I actually follow more accounts that are related to like inspiring quotes and meditation and great thinkers and philosophy than I do individual people. Because if I want to know about someone's life, I'd rather call them or get on FaceTime or set up a time to take a walk socially distance somewhere safely.

Giancarlo Pitocco (25:38):

Then look at pictures of their newborn on Facebook. I see that if I do see that in my feed, well, I don't want to sit there and comment on Facebook. I want to get on the phone and call them and talk to them or, you know, plan a time to go see them. I don't want this. I don't want it all digital that's no, thanks. So, but that's me. And, and so, you know, other people might prefer it that way. Other people that might be the only way they can do it. So finding what works for you, finding what feels good, deleting your feed. If that's a thing you want to do it's, it's fun to try and see, see how it shows up. The other part of that, that I'm curious though, too, is making the shift actually deciding, okay, I've had enough of that.

Giancarlo Pitocco (26:22):

I want it different. Can you maybe talk about the role your meditation practice had in leading you to that decision and making, you know, cause I think the other thing that some of us are afraid of, even if it's not good for us is change. You've gotten so used to something, it provides value. We don't want to, you know, fear of missing out all of that kind of stuff. So maybe if you could talk a little bit about how meditation maybe helped you go, okay, I get that, but now time to exit. Yeah. So I mean, meditation is such a perfectly beautiful contrast to using our devices. When I was last in India I got to hear a Swami who lives in a cave, isolated from civilization, come in and speak to the group I was with, including Anthony who was there. And he, he pointed at us and said, those phones that you're carrying, they are vibrating with the energy of the universe.

Giancarlo Pitocco (27:24):

And you wonder why you can't find peace. We are staring into these things that are truly vibrating with all this, this energy, a lot of it negative. Right? if I think about my meditation practice, I start my day with it. It's the first thing I do after I get up in the morning. And that's in contrast to what I used to do, which was use my phone as my alarm clock. And so before my head is even off the pillow, I'm reaching for my phone and looking at the screen. What happens when you do that? Well, all the stresses of the day come pouring into your consciousness, right? You're, you're faced with here's my agenda for the day. Here's the stressful email from my clients. Here's a news update about some nasty dramatic thing that has happened in the political world and all that, ah, okay.

Giancarlo Pitocco (28:08):

Filled with stress chemistry, right? That triggers that fight or flight response at the base level of our brain. And it sends stress chemistry through my body. So I haven't even begun my day yet. And I've already got my own body working against me, where as with meditation, I'm doing the opposite of that. I'm, I'm enjoying some solitude. I'm getting quiet, I'm conditioning my brain to know what it's like to enjoy being without the constant stimulation. It's like a, it's true that we get your brain starts to crave stimulation that is provided by television, video games, cell phones all the stuff we do on those devices, meditation has trained me to enjoy being without that constant stimulation where I can sit in a waiting room or in line somewhere for 10 minutes without the urge to reach for my phone, I can just like be, I can just observe.

Giancarlo Pitocco (29:05):

I can just be present in the moment in a way that I used to constantly have to be doing something. Oh man, I'm so bored here. Like give me my phone. Let me see if someone tweeted something interesting or posted something interesting on Facebook. Oh, let me devour the news. And every idol moment that I have, by the way, all of that is information that isn't really relevant to me living my life. And so many of us spend all day consuming the news when really like maybe a 30 minute news session once a week gives you everything you need to know in order to be an informed voter or whatever it is that you need information for. That comes from the news. So meditation taught me and retrained my mind through a daily twice a day practice of 20 minute meditations, reconditioned my mind to enjoy being still and not being still an accepting boredom, but finding delight in simpler things that, you know, you could say that sounds boring, but in the moment it's freaking delightful.

Giancarlo Pitocco (30:08):

And I, so I've just moved from New York city to Los Angeles. And, you know, I just find myself staring off at like the plants that are here. I'm not used to having plants. It's like so amazing, like the greenery everywhere and the way the wind blows through the trees. And it's like, I'm delighted. And I didn't even need Twitter or Facebook or Apple TV to make me feel that. So that's one of the big shifts that meditation has created in me that has helped me break that dependence on these devices to entertain me, stimulate me all day long.

Anthony Thompson (30:44):

Beautiful. I think that was such an encouraging way to speak to Vedic meditators who are perhaps thinking, well, how am I going to, how am I going to find that, that kind of moment when I can take, you know, have the courage to turn things off or reset? My, my devices, the big, biggest fear is that of course we, as meditates than many of us, but in the big scheme of things, we're actually a very small group of people, but we have a responsibility and of course we do have an effect on all the people around us. Did you notice when you were working in Facebook and some of the other big corporations that there were other meditators people, either using Vedic meditation or other meditation practices, did you come across people like that?

Giancarlo Pitocco (31:32):

There were I never found another Vedic meditator inside of Facebook. Not that they aren't there but I never came across them. And I even hosted a Vedic meditation session where Tom Knowles came in and spoke and you know, filled a whole big room at Facebook and had people dialed in from all across the world to tune into him being there. But you know, none of the people that I came across while organizing that said, Oh yeah, and I'm, you know, doing Vedic meditation, there are other meditators there. I didn't find anyone who was super regular in their practice. I didn't find anyone who saw it as anything beyond just a way to distress. And, and I think, you know, that can be a very limiting view on what benefits you get from it. And as Tom knows, likes to say, every technique of meditation is designed to give you exactly the results that says it will give you, but I, what I have appreciated about our practices, that it has so much, so many more benefits than just the stressing, although that is the one that people most commonly recognize is this ability to be stable, even in uncertain or turbulent situations.

Giancarlo Pitocco (32:44):

But you know, I really was hoping we'd get a lot more Vedic meditators in, at Facebook as a result of Tom being there.

Anthony Thompson (32:52):

I think, you know, stress is sometimes the gateway into Vedic meditation is that it's the first thing that people get attracted to. But just going back to your earlier points about how we can actually change the situation when you were talking about governments, governments examining this and trying to pack perhaps put in place some, some laws to change the way these companies work. And we also, as the consumers have perhaps an obligation that we can take responsibility ourselves, but I'm just wondering also, you know, given your personal experience and the central dilemma, but also this week, there was a letter published by Ashok Chand, whiny, who is a Facebook employee and he's resigned and his letter was published. And he sort of also brings up the points that you've raised of being frankly disgusted by, by the, the, the organization, the management's approach to this.

Anthony Thompson (33:49):

Do you think that actually the change is going to come from the people who work within that instead of government coming in from outside from us, you know, us as the consumers, we can only do a certain amount, but it's actually the people who work in the organization. If enough of them, if there's a critical mass who understand that, what they're doing, actually, isn't helpful that it's seriously counterproductive to the development of, of the human mind. And so the fulfillment of human beings that we are being manipulated and tweaked, maybe that could be the place where we as meditators, are we going to target? Do we have a mission to target Facebook employees and say, Hey guys, we know, you know, I suspect you're probably a little bit disconcerted at the moment. Why don't you try this? And why don't we start a movement from within there's. So often the change coming from within is so much more powerful than the pressure coming from without

Rory Kinsella (34:54):

Go and get your own tilt back

Giancarlo Pitocco (35:05):

[Inaudible] Oh my God. Yeah.

Giancarlo Pitocco (35:09):

There's, there's a lot to unpack there. I want to focus on what would be most beneficial for folks to hear. Have you ever,

Giancarlo Pitocco (35:21):

Have you,

Giancarlo Pitocco (35:21):

Have you ever known a group of people? Oh, go ahead. I was just listening. Have you ever known a group of people who maybe follow a certain politician with almost a religious fervor where no matter what evidence is brought forth that says this person is actually like a con man or con woman who is just lying all the time and is, is actually destroying the thing that you most care about. Have you ever known a group of people that when faced with that evidence would choose to believe that the person that they believe in is just the only source of truth? Have you ever known, have you ever seen a situation like that in the world? Maybe that's happening like right now, where no matter what happens, if the person they believe in says those are all lies, they believe it and want to believe it. And can't wait to see, have you ever heard of anything like that?

Giancarlo Pitocco (36:23):

I have seen it. I've seen it in multiple places.

Giancarlo Pitocco (36:29):

The one that's in the news. I guarantee if you turn on the news right now, you will see some evidence of it reported in, on television or print or whatever the heck you read. You'll see it. I've seen all of that before. And it wasn't in the political field. It was inside the halls of Facebook and the same religious fervor and the response of, well, we'll see what Mark and Cheryl have to say about this news that we influenced the election, or we'll see about this controversy or this awful thing that people are saying we did. And watch them masterfully put forth a, a narrative that paints us in the best light possible, us being Facebook and, you know, shoots down all the naysayers outside. It is. I mean, it's truly an art form and they have it down in a way where, I mean, I know one other person who in this world who is also masterful at that and watching them work is very impressive, very impressive, and very scary.

Giancarlo Pitocco (37:32):

What do we do about that? Should we target Facebook employees to become a Vedic meditators? Absolutely. We should. Absolutely. We should. We should be targeting anyone. Who's in a position to help influence the major movements that are happening in this world at a government or cultural level, the leaders, the people that have the power to create some change, because they're actually pooling the leavers, turning the dials. If we can reach them, we absolutely should. In all fields, not even just Facebook, although in social media and technology, I mean, it goes much further than that, but yes, we should be targeting them. We need more meditators inside of these kinds of companies. We need more meditators inside of Silicon Valley and to go a step beyond that, not just meditators, but people who are willing to go through the process of correcting mistaken intellect and choosing to be a witness of themselves, experiencing propaganda and all forces of cultural indoctrination that color our view of the world.

Giancarlo Pitocco (38:39):

It's not enough just to meditate. Meditation is great. And you know, some people have these amazing breakthroughs where they're able to Cognose insights that come from the ancient Vedas that help you see more clearly what's actually happening in the world and what people's different biases and influences our persuasions are. We need that too. We need people willing to unlearn all the, the cultural indoctrination that has made them blind to what their own role is in this world, through their jobs. I mean, I saw a lot of very, very happy, well fed a well paid comfortable people inside that company that didn't want bad news about the effect their work was having on the world, because it meant they that they might be earning all these comforts and this wealth and all this delicious food off of behavior. They might not be proud of when they look back on their lives. If we, I mean, if there's a way to wake people up to that, I don't know a better way than Vedic meditation and studying the knowledge behind it. Thousands of years old that helps us. It doesn't tell us how to think. It tells us how to see clearly it's an agnostic body of knowledge that helps you just have the clearest lens possible for what's happening. I love that if we get more people doing that, amen, J guru David.

Giancarlo Pitocco (40:03):

So that's

Giancarlo Pitocco (40:05):

Step after get your house in order. So, you know, start meditating break your addiction to all things, including devices and media stimulation, whatever form that comes in for you. And then once you've got that under control, how can you be a resource to others? How can you be that positive influence? You know an exemplar of what it is to live a more intentional, purposeful, balanced life. I mean, when I was inside of Facebook, there were two reactions I got at first, people were like, Oh my God, you are on fire. You are just performing better than ever at work. You, you are effortlessly delivering results in a way it's you seem totally unstressed. What do you have? We'll have some too. And then once I taught them what it was, the other reaction was, Oh, wait, you're saying that what we're building might not be good for us and we should tone it down.

Giancarlo Pitocco (40:58):

I remember the day that I led a session in a team meeting where I was like, here's how to tame your Facebook newsfeed and really sculpted into what you want it to be like we were talking about before Derek and the reaction from people was are you OK? Like they weren't willing to hear it. Obviously, like I didn't do my job and meeting them where they were. There was a gap that I didn't effectively bridge, but I did get, you know, once I went beyond the here's, how I am you know, now that I meditate and now that I've reduced the influence of technology my life, you think it looks so good once I tell you all of a sudden, it forced you to question your job or the company that you work for, or some of your own habits, and it was uncomfortable for people. And so instead they wanted to say, no, something's wrong with you. We don't want to buy that. There's anything wrong with us or the place that we worked for. So that was interesting.

Derrick Yanford (41:51):

You know, I heard you say something else along the lines of how the geniuses of the world need to take their, their eyes off the phone. And everybody, everybody needs to start using their mind to help us reach the solutions that humanity is facing unlike they have ever in before. And what that triggered for me was like, I was like, well, what's my genius. You know? And are there people who, if maybe they were given another opportunity to go, Hey, look, the phone is great. We know you can connect with people. Like you said, the universe is vibrating in your hand. However, what if you looked up from that work, how could you bring your genius out into the world? And so I'm like, I want to inspire people to bring their genius into the world. And that might mean, or probably will mean you got to put your phone down to do it though.

Giancarlo Pitocco (42:51):

That's right. That's right. I mean, I hope to be a teacher of Vedic meditation someday. And I get a little bit of practice in teaching about it. When people ask me about my practice and why I am a Vedic meditator, and the benefit that I tend to espouse the most is the fact that meditation has tuned me into my intuition in a way that I never was before. And what does that mean? That means that I'm tapped into that innate creative intelligence where all the creative energies flow throughout flow from when you think about great artists and geniuses in this world, those are the folks that were most tapped into that creative intelligence or that intuition as we most commonly refer to it as, and to have regular sustained access to that is so delightful and so transformational. And it makes you fearless. It makes you appear fearless to others because of the decisions that you make to reshape your life in, in ways that are more authentic to who you are and what you actually want, versus what your culture has told you is the best way to live.

Giancarlo Pitocco (44:04):

And that is one of the greatest benefits there is. And for some of that meat, that means unleashing the innate genius. We have to solve the problems that are facing humanity. Right now. We need more of those geniuses putting their phones down and rising up to tackle the challenges like we, you know, here in the U S we've had over a hundred days of people protesting in favor of racial justice. That's incredible. These people have put down their dang, gotten out on the streets and that's amazing. And that's another force that's happening. That's trying to create positive evolution in our culture. And you know, that can be spun a number of different ways, depending on your political biases. But these are people that are fundamentally standing up and saying, enough is enough. I want to be treated equally. And, and others that aren't being treated equally, who are also standing up with them saying, we need to make change.

Giancarlo Pitocco (44:58):

I love this. And that's beautiful. And so some, it doesn't mean we're all going to go out and become, you know famous artists or genius scientists or incredible leaders of institutions like a form of genius as being an incredibly skilled teacher of meditation, right? Like if you have the power to make a technique, relatable enough to a person that they adopted as their daily practice and then get to reap the benefits of it. Oh my gosh. I mean, is there a greater gift you can give? Because if we, I mean, I fundamentally believe at least here in the U S a lot of our problems STEM from the fact that we have a really poor education system, and we have people who are heavily influenced by the media that we're surrounded by. And if we could get them seeing more clearly and more steady in their own beliefs and intuition that they would be immune to a lot of what they see on Facebook and the news that is influencing them in ways that makes them unhappy at the end of the day, and leading a, an empty meaningless life.

Giancarlo Pitocco (46:06):

I know that sounds really harsh, but, you know, ask people that have had those moments where, you know, midlife crisis is a thing, right? And that's coming to terms with the fact that you've lived by society's rules for so long. You've chased all these ideals that they try to teach you lead to a good life. And if you haven't done the inner work, if you haven't created some inner stability and connection to, well, what makes a meaningful, satisfying life for me, then you're going to hit that midlife crisis and wake up, you know, leading a life that doesn't fit you. I want to lead a life that fits me. I don't know how we got on this topic. And I think it's done

Rory Kinsella (46:44):

The bike connecting with that creative source. We, we find fulfillment there, you know, when we find the inspiration and all those other things, and that makes us less needy and less looking for that satisfaction from the outside world, which could be any, you know, manner of things. You know, I used to be a heavy drinker. So it was alcohol for me. We're talking about social media here. That's looking for that kind of dopamine hit in the outside world. So rather than it being necessarily a case of getting the clarity and then saying, no, it's this natural quality of, I am satisfied on the inside. So I naturally look less at my phone and I naturally want that kind of nasty stimulation of news, or I want that bad news because it connects my bad feelings inside. We have less of that. So I always like to stress to people that it's this natural process where they won't have to go, Oh, no, I'm eating bad food.

Rory Kinsella (47:40):

I'm gonna have to change that. It's like, you will naturally change that by, by connecting. And that's, I think it's important to always stress how simple this is. Like, it's not like with thinking through all these aspects, it just happens naturally by removing these external influences saying, I'm closing my eyes. I'm not taking in any more information. Like you said, it's the opposite of the newsfeed. It's like zing, you know, taking that off. And then everything else is, is a natural byproduct of that. And it becomes this playful experience rather than going right. And now I have to go through and remove all these bad things. They just fall away because you need them less, which I think is always important to show people. And then the other kind of technology thing that I love to bring up with students, that intro talks who are like, I haven't got time for this. I'm like, do you have an iPhone? Do you have the screen time? Let me see how many hours you spent on it.

Giancarlo Pitocco (48:41):

Yes. Oh, that's, that's my favorite. I don't have time for this. What you are. What you aren't changing. You are choosing someone said that once. And I, I never forgot it. I don't remember where it came from, but what you aren't changing, you are choosing. So people that come to me and say, ah, you know, my kids are addicted to their phones and what do I do about it? I'm, you know, stressed out and busy. I don't have time to deal with this. Well, is it important to you? Is it more important than what's occupying all your time, raising good kids, raising kids in a way that, that feels true and authentic based on your values and morals. What's more important than that. I mean, actually like, show me your calendar, show me what, what is so important that it takes you away from that.

Giancarlo Pitocco (49:28):

And it's usually work, right? Like we, we point to work as our excuse to get out of a lot of things that would be better for us. Okay. Well, if you want to choose your career and maximizing your earning potential over the course of your lifetime, well, you have to make peace with the sacrifices you're making and the sacrifices might mean not tending to your children as carefully as you'd like to as a parent, is it worth it to you for that to make another 50,000, a hundred thousand dollars a year on your salary? Because you're more competitive because you rise up through the ranks faster, you take on more responsibility at work. The more responsibility you take on that occupies your time so much so that you can't tend to the things that are important to you personally, while you're choosing that and make peace with it now, and don't be upset when your kids behave in ways that aren't the way you wanted to raise them.

Giancarlo Pitocco (50:16):

I say that somewhat sarcastically, right? Because obviously we want to be good parents. But maybe some people have different priorities and, and if can make peace with the fact that there's a trade off there. Great. And this is true on all levels. I pick parents because that's who most often brings that complaint. To me, they're usually executives at companies trying to raise kids. But you know, letting other people dictate their agenda, I go into companies and I teach them how to reclaim their agendas, both so that they can have a personal life, but also, so they can do their best work. Instead of being monopolized by meetings that half the time they tell me, they don't even know why they're in these meetings and don't contribute much. Anyway, this is another form of allowing others to influence the course of our lives and not being authors, not having agency over the life. We're creating how we spend our time is a reflection of our reverence for life. So gotta get right with that.

Anthony Thompson (51:26):

What a fascinating examination of our relationship with technology, this conversation turned out to be experts like Giancarlo agreed that the first step to acting with purpose rather than compulsion, is to take stock of just how much time our tech takes from us without our consent begin tracking what you're doing with your screen time and take a critical look at where that time goes. Did you choose to spend three hours scrolling through your feed or did it just happen? If this conversation has raised some thoughts or comments, we'd love to hear them. And have you joined the conversation, please send them through to us@storiesatthevedicconversation.com. We'll post them on social media with a hashtag the Vedic conversation. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with your followers and don't forget to subscribe to our channel. See you next time.